When I speak to employers on developing military recruiting programs, a veteran’s level of education is an area that generates a lot of discussion. I hear time and again “where can I find the ones who have a degree?” or “we are looking for officers, because we hear they are the ones who have degrees”.
Granted, a majority of officers come through a college commissioning program, like the Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) or a service academy. So, yes, they have a degree and a commission. But officers only make up about 30% of the total military; the other 70% are enlisted members, whose level of education completed varies. Some are high school graduates and others have master’s degrees, and everything in between. Generally, the longer someone serves in the military, the greater the chance they have completed or are very close to completing a 4 year degree.
Still, some employers are not impressed. “All of our positions require at least a bachelor’s”. Hiring managers believe that they gain something extra in terms of talent and potential by hiring someone who has completed a 4-year degree.
There was an article in US News & World Report a few years ago that highlighted this trend of employers requiring a 4 year degree as a minimum qualification for jobs. The author discovered that the young woman who helped him check out his rental car had a bachelor’s degree. He thought to himself “What is inherent about inspecting a vehicle for damage, completing some paperwork, and confirming mileage that requires 4 years of advanced education? Nothing.” Curious, he contacted the company’s HR department and learned that, other than an exception for military experience, all people hired into this position had to have a minimum of a bachelor’s.
In fairness, there are jobs that actually do require a degree, such as doctors, lawyers, nurses, Certified Public Accountants, engineers, and most teaching positions. In those cases, the degree is a requirement to be licensed or certified to practice. But what about the OTHER jobs?
The reality is, in a tight labor market, employers can be choosier when deciding what the minimum criteria are for a given position. The irony is, despite efforts to be more diversified, many companies still insist on a degree for most positions, which automatically winnows the pool to the approximately 26% of the US population has at least a 4 year degree. A population that, by and large, had the financial means to obtain a degree, and a support system that prepared them to meet college acceptance criteria and to complete the program of education. In other words: a population that is not as diversified as it could be.
I continue to push employers to consider military experience as at least equal to a 4 year degree. I’ve collected their responses to the question: “Why do your positions require a minimum of a bachelor’s degree?” The top reasons given are listed below, and I have provided my counter-argument as to why military experience is indicative of the same qualities sought by employers:
| What employers say a bachelor’s degree demonstrates | What Lisa (and every other veteran) says military experience demonstrates |
| Knowledge– completing a degree indicates that you have demonstrated basic understanding of an area of study.A person may have 8-16 weeks of actual experience in that area of study if they had internships. | Experience – completing an enlistment means that you have spent between 2-12 concentrated months learning how to perform a particular occupation (law enforcement, supply chain, human resources, etc.) and that you have performed it well enough for the 2-3 years that followed the training to maintain employment.If the person performed that job particularly well there would be evidence of promotions and awards. |
| Perseverance– Committing to a goal and succeeding.College is hard. No one is there to make you get up in the morning and go to class and to nag you to do your homework and turn in your assignments on time. Ideally, a student will knuckle down and complete the degree in 4 years. | Perseverance– Committing to a goal and succeeding.Basic training (“boot camp”) is hard. Drill sergeants are in your face every second of every day breaking you down in order to build you back up. For those that survive boot camp, actual military service runs them ragged, with training, exercises, deployments and long hours.Joining the military is voluntary, and by enlisting a person signs a contract. Come hell or high water, most people who join complete their contract because it is their personal goal to serve their country honorably in whatever capacity they can. Choosing to serve in the military is choosing a tough lifestyle, and these volunteers could have made other, perhaps easier, choices. |
| Analytical skills – many hours are spent in class reading materials and discussing the meaning and the implication of what was read and how it applies to other situations. When their analysis is correct students get an “A” and when they are incorrect they get an “C” or worse. | Analytical skills – many hours are spent on deployments in chaotic situations, gathering information, comparing data, discussing the meaning and implications of what has been gathered and how it could impact other situations. When their analysis is correct military members achieve their goals and when they are incorrect people could die. |
| Communication skills – course work requires that you write papers explaining your understanding of the material and making well thought out arguments for or against a position. College work also requires that you present information to an audience (classmates, teacher) either orally or through a presentation. | Communication skills – Staff work in the military requires that you write papers explaining your understanding of complex real-life situations and making well thought out arguments for a course of action. Staff work also involves writing policy papers and synthesizing complex subject matter into charts, graphs or presentations to be briefed to senior leaders.Even the most junior enlisted member has been asked at least once to orally brief a senior leader. Many of them do it as a matter of routine, given the number of inspections and command visits a unit receives. |
| An ability to manage time and to multitask – taking 4 to 6 classes a semester, juggling assignments and exams, and keeping up with fraternity events or sport teams means you have to be very cognizant of where you need to be on a given day and what you need to have completed in order to be successful | An ability to manage time and to multitask – in addition to doing the requirements of your job in the military, there is no shortage of administrative tasks, “no notice” taskings, and things that just don’t go the way they were planned to contend with on a daily basis. The military runs on a “no excuses” mentality, so service members are expected to deal with the situation as presented, figure out how to adapt to and/or overcome road blocks, and achieve the goal. |
So, when you break it down like that, can you see how 3-6 years of military experience provides much if not all of the true value (as expressed by the employers themselves) of a 4 year degree?
A final word on online degrees: While serving in the military, many military members pursue online education, as this allows them to take classes and work toward a degree while on deployment or while juggling multiple exercises and other work commitments. So, check your personal bias against degrees from online universities, as those educational options are often the only ones available for military members to pursue while still serving. I think it says a lot about a veteran’s perseverance to choose to take classes on top of all their other commitments while serving.
Great article.
Military service is not equal to college education. You even state in certain jobs like Staff, you will write papers, does everyone in the military write papers? Does everyone in the military have to take comprehensive examinations… The answer here is no, college education far outweighs any form of military training. You simply cannot use everything you learn in the military in civilian life. Your education is what will apply to everything you ever do! I am prior service army, I am also a junior at Ohio University, I have not used anything I learned from the army in real life. You need to be highly educated to perform important roles in life. You cannot simply join the armed forces and say hey I want to be juvenile probation officer. How will you know how to deal with young adults if you have never taken a class pertaining to behavioral science? My argument is finished and I have stated what needed to be said here. No military service will ever hold anything to higher education. No matter how unfortunate that may be, it is the truth, simply because you do not need much of an education to serve in the armed forces.
Hi Dustin – thank you for your comment. I think we may be comparing apples and oranges here. Yes, there are occupations where a college education is critical to performing well. However, there are many companies that are mis-applying the need for a college degree to gain access to entry level positions – positions that 7 years ago were routinely filled by people with only a high school diploma. But when the economy tanked and suddenly the number of people looking for work far exceeded the supply of jobs to be filled, employers decided to increase the criteria to compete for these jobs by requiring bachelors degrees.
I do hope you do not truly believe that your military service taught you nothing that you use in real life today. The Army taught you nothing about discipline, integrity, leadership, time management, problem ownership or team work? Even if you had every one of those applied skills before you joined the military, the military provided you many opportunities to utilize those skills and that is demonstrated experience – not “I read a book on leadership and wrote an essay on leadership” but “I led a team of five junior members to successfully complete 25 emergency response actions, each lasting 5-15 days in length”
If anyone serves in the military and did not learn leadership, they didn’t deserve to be there or did not belong there. Military service varies as well. Most jobs in the Marine Corps or the Army do not teach many “skills” that employers are looking for, while the majority of Air Force and the Navy jobs are technical in nature and by far surpass knowledge levels of the typical fresh college graduate. If you served in infantry, you knew what you would be able to achieve after entering….
I have found that at this point it is probably based on where you are as far as location and that dreaded word……. EXPERIENCE. I have both a Bachelors degree and was prior enlisted in the Navy for 6 years I have literally applied to over 50 jobs and have gotten either a rejection letter or no answer at all in the letters it always says the same thing “glad you have a Bachelors Degree but we need someone with experience” . For a country that stresses education it seems that when you finally complete that milestone you have nothing to look forward to unless you have experience as well. I might as well throw the degree in the garbage for all the good it has done me.
In the nuclear navy there are colleges that will waive half of your college education based on the fact that you made it through the nuclear pipeline. Basic military schools will not compare to college education I agree, however there are certain professions that based on the school along with OJT, will result in you landing a job that is somewhat equal.
You must have been infantry or combat MOS. I served over 17 years in military starting as a supply specialist and ending as a brigade S4 NCOIC at the of 35, that is the equivalent of civilian senior supply chain manager. I have attended every school imaginable to further my military career and supply chain studies. To tell me that scheduling some products to run down a production line, make sure that shipments are in time and calculate deliveries is tougher than managing 4 airfields of rotary aircraft, the personnel to maintain inventory of supplies, the logistics of purchasing them and manueveing them across the globe on a given notice is not enough experience is ridiculous!!!! If I calculated the courses I have attended and the hours spent in those classrooms at different schools I should have a masters at this point.
Dear Dustin,
Sorry to have to disagree with you on how you see Military Experience. Judging from your comment I will guess that you never were put in for Leadership training. I myself am prior service in the USAF for about 10 years. Simply put it will always be what type of career field you choose that will prepare you for what is important. I have had the displeasure of watching people from Columbia University with a PHD disgrace that University by not being able to simple communicate effectively to ,viewers. Employers should always be looking for the best candidate because that always helps your bottom line, however they will not always be people with a Degree that are your best candidates. I attended two of the three Leadership classes the USAF offered. These two classes have helped me immensely because they have helped me be able to read my audience and know what to say a how to say to get people to respond to get the job done on time and with great success. In short most employers don’t hire Service members because they are afraid of that person taking their spot and they really don’t want someone who knows more of how the ripple effect is going to impact their bottom line. I’ve been out of the service for over 20 years and it never fells that people in positions of power are always trying to protect it by removing the threat which in most cases it the person who knows how to make the Company better. It has always been in my life that a life is more important that a position meaning that if you are for the perseverance of life then you have the upper hand because how you see something determines what your decision will be. If you don’t factor in what’s important then your outcome will always be lacking. As people we are only able to see with our naked eye .001 percent of what’s available to be seen but we act like we have all the answers. I personally believe that all service members have an advantage in this area even though we get a raw deal from some employers. We run to the fight not away. My Hope is that we will find managers that will put their personal feelings aside for the better good and not hire people less than your intellect. Smart people are not always found in Universities or Colleges.
After 21 years in the United States Army my military course work, leadership schools and technical classes that I took were evaluated by a major university. All of my classroom work, courses, technical training and other schools that I attended equated to 80 college credits.
Dustin is right … NOBODY considers this to be equal to a college education. Its a damn shame too. I was an Instructor for a technical school for 14 months. I still had to take Speech 101. I have attended 6 different universities (in person, online or via military education system). My 80 credits are hardly worth the paper they’re printed on.
Yet, I would like to know how a college graduate can compare themselves to someone in the same field with 3 years experience? Why is this not as highly valued as an individual that has spent 6 figures for an education to get a job that only pays 5 figures?
For “fun” lets compare Supply, Communications and a Medic.
In the military, parts and supplies MUST get from where they are stored to where they are needed. That kind of works the same way in the civilian world.
Civilian communications use terms like frequency, band width, channel and sound wave. Broadcast and Receive are also common. Works the same in the military. Medics work on humans in the military …. guess what? The civilian world has humans too.
Now .. A college student that wants to break into the supply / shipping & receiving industry has what to offer an employer? “Played football? Drama Club? Fraternity in college? A solid 2.4 GPA?”
A college student that wants to work in a technical field has no experience to offer, just training. A Veteran only have a Certificate of Training, but they have some experience with that education. “Do you really need to know how fossils were formed to do a job today?”
A college student that wants to be a nurse or a PA has to have a higher level of training than an Army Medic … but then again, so does the Medic. So an Army medic entering nursing school has something more to offer than a high school cheer leader. So if you want to compare a Medic’s experience to a college student’s experience … by all means, hire the educated and look past the experienced.
I just think it is a damn shame that job experience from the military is overlooked so easily. My job required a lot of the same challenges civilian counterparts deal with. I worked in the same environments, and in some of the worst conditions for ungrateful and selfish people. I also had some great leaders that gave me praise for my efforts. Nothing can replace a college education, but there is no college that can teach you like experience.
That could be true in some cases but not all. There is many qualification standards that need to be met while in the military that count for college credits. Being in the military you learn comprehension skills, leadership skills, administration abilities that most college course can’t teach you. It’s one thing to take a class, it’s another to take the knowledge and be able to apply it to real life senarios.
This was a great article! After getting off of active duty after 14 years, I have found it almost impossible to get a job (maybe I am looking in the wrong places?). With my reserve service, I now have 16+ years of military experience and am due to graduate with my Bachelor’s degree later this month. I am hoping that this will make me a bit more competitive when it comes to my search for a second career. The only roadblocks that I have run into are that I am “overqualified” and “the employer can’t afford to pay me what I am worth” (because of my years of military experience) or I don’t yet possess a 4-year degree (I was able to get my Associate’s degree while on active duty). I even offered to take an entry-level position and work my way up, but all of the employers were against the ideas.
Can anyone suggest a better way for me to approach my job searching? I know that I have a lot to offer an employer, I just don’t think that I am searching the right employers. Thanks for your time!
Was the rental company that you rented your car from Enterprise by any chance? If so the girl who rented your car to you is making close to 60K per year to work the lot as it is part of their management trainee program. They have a very unique recruiting, training, development, and promotion program in place. It is somewhat old fashioned, like middle ages old fashioned. The old lead from the front mentality; lead the troops into battle in order to gain respect from troops and boost troop morale. It is how Enterprise gets their over educated to stay positive during this period of underemployment and not quit the first time a cozy office and cube job presents itself. Everyone in Enterprise’s chain of command has at one point or another been down in the trenches for the company and have had to prove themselves before receiving their promotions. There are a few exceptions of course. Certain people sometimes just fit the organization through external experience they have acquired over the years. For the most part though if you want to be a boss at Enterprise, not sure if anyone actually strives for this goal or not, but if you do then there is only one surefire way you can get there. Pick up a squeegee, broom, vac, and some sponges toweles in buckets with soap and head on over to your local Enterprise lot. Probably located at your nearest airport. The good thing about this is that you do not really need to be smarter than your competition and perform better doing top level work. The lot level work really sucks. Long hours in horrible weather and very little flexibility when family, medical or whatever other type of emergency arises. You just need to suck it up for a couple of years and watch your competition fall out of the running. focus on the light at the end of the tunnel and soon you will be running your own lot and allocating duties to the newest graduating class of Enterprise management hopefuls. There is a saying for those who cannot find a job after college and are worried about their prospects. It is “Well there’s always Enterprise”.
That’s because Military service greatly surpasses a college education. It’s based on actual experience and entails everything you learned plus hands on actual experiences. Plus most got a degree while active duty. The same degree you got while sleeping comfortably in a dorm room. So keep hoping and spreading your hopes that JUST a college degree is better. Employers aren’t stupid. That’s why they hire ex-military. But keep telling yourself that you know as much as us who have SERVED IN ACTUAL DUTY. It’s all good.
I will note first that I have worked as a Veterans Employment Rep.mfor the last 23 yrs. I am a veterans of the U.S. Air Force, six years on active duty. I would like to add my two cents to your blog. It should be noted that while on a deployment to a war zone or support role, there is no time to work on a degree or certificate program. There are other more important matters to take care of. You can not expect an active duty person to have time for study, homework, testing….. on line while they have just got in after a fire fight and need to be ready for another mission the following day. Time off can be non-existent for many reasons. Another fact is while on active duty one must get permission from his/her command to attend an off-site college. One last thing, even to take an online course while stateside can be a no-go due to training which may put a person in the field for three week maybe more. Employers should recognize the military training and education as it is often time better. An issue we struggle with is the licensing trades (electricians, plumbers,……). There is no difference with the electricity used between military and civilians. The big difference is the veteran may have to work under extreme stress while performing their duties in a combat zone. They get the work done without complaint, only pride in knowing they can do what most cannot. Even our infantry learn highly complex weapon system and must deploy them in the field. Serious, often life threatening decisions, are be made on a moments notice by 19-20 year olds.
I agree that a better effort must be made to educate professional societies that offer certifications on the training veterans are provided and the work they conduct.
There is just as much if not more “hurry up and wait” time in the military as anywhere; trust me. I was active duty, married to military (very restricted on freedom because you have to consider BOTH active duty requirements…there’s not a spouse waiting at home), raising children, delivering pizza on base part time job in addition to my 12 hour shift…because you can’t pay for child care on an E-4 salary. And I got a 4 year degree, shortly after I finished my 2 year degree. Because I didn’t want to be a homeless veteran. That’s effective risk management.
Of course it’s difficult; that’s why you’re rewarded for doing it.
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it must have been nice having a job in the military that would allow you the time and predictable schedule for a college education. Not even one works with a predicable schedule. In my squadron I could be sent out as an individual, not as a unit. So while I can get TA, or use my GI bill, I can be sent off for a month or two with days notice, maybe less in some cases. Then because of my transit time and possibly no internet access for days I can fail a class and end up owing either the Navy, or the VA tuition money. And they will not accept any excuses. Its happened to me.
Hi Marshall – no doubt that the military is even more hectic today than it was when I was on active duty (1989-1999). It does take patience and perseverence to work toward a degree while serving. In my case, it took 5 years to complete a 2 year masters degree program due to deployments, long exercises, mandatory military education requirements and occasional lack of available Tuition Assistance (TA) $$. However, one thing that is available today that was not available when I was working on the degree is online classes (The Internet was not as easily available to the masses back in the early and mid 1990’s).
While traditional colleges are slowly coming online and making more classes available via the Internet, there are the colleges/universities that have always been military friendly, including University of Central Texas, UMUC, and others. I have found them to be tremendously flexible and knowledgable of the types of schedules we keep, and easier to work with when “stuff happens”.
yea thats great that you accomplished all that but you shouldnt have to i bet with all your experience in military and that education they only care about the education someone with 4 years active duty experience should be given the same opportunity as a 4 year grad unless its something to do with a specific job like in the article says like engineers etc.trust me as security forces i had only enough time to maybe get a few hours a night with all the work and extra training i was doing really had no time for college while i was in.
I think the deployed veteran that is able to do their job outside the wire is definitely qualified to handle “troubleshooting” and other duties as well as someone with a 2 yr degree. No matter how they got it.
I would like to agree with only one part of your response, no wait, never mind, I would like to disagree with all of it. Firstly, I’m active duty Air Force and about to go on my 5th deployment (in 9 years of being in) and in May I will graduate with a B.S. in Management Studies from UMUC. Before you assume that I have an office job, let me tell you that I’m in CE and an electrician, one of the busiest jobs downrange next to HVAC. Secondly, I’m also a state licensed electrician having been trained on the outside by the IBEW-JATC. To the point that you had about electricity being the same in the military as on the outside, you are right, but the training is a lot different! What took me 4 years of an apprenticeship to learn only took 6 months in the military. So much was never taught in tech school that I felt embarrassed for the others in the class. Military electricians are not electricians; the only thing that they are qualified for when they leave the service is that of a maintenance worker, and nothing else. Most training programs only give 2 years of credit (of which they have to take a test on to see if they’ll even place that high) for military service. The military just doesn’t teach to the same level as the outside counterparts do. What it all boils down to is time management. While having a wife and son, WAPS testing (I’m a TSgt by the way), school, volunteering, working out (since the 3 times a week isn’t enough to stay in) and having Airmen to write on is a lot to keep up with for any person, it all can be balanced with proper time management. So I say, instead of competing between military experience and civilian degrees, how about get both? Just a thought, and like I tell my Airmen, “We have the same amount of hours in the day as Thomas Jefferson, Da Vinci and Einstein, and look at all that they did.”
I disagree with your commentary in assuming a blanket statement relating to your specific experience covers an all encompassing answer. I myself served under the 3 MAW of the United States Marine Corps, I worked for VMFAT 101 where we had to uphold an average of 42 sortie missions a day and perform all of the maintenance at night. Here is my problem with your comment, i.e. “Its all about time management” and the ethical lines it crosses. The Marine Corps operates on the least budget allocation of all the branches, which means they operate on lean man power as well. If someone is taking time off of work to go to school that means your brethren are picking up your work load. We generally ran on 13 hr shifts and if we had P.T. 14hrs. Bottom line; I signed up to serve my country, and my country gave me the best and most high of a technical education one could receive in a compressed schedule. Yet, my education is not held to the same level of competence. I went through three military schools while in service and it was mandatory that we complete study time on the aircraft and systems we worked on. Hands down an A&P nor a college grad with zero experience can compare to the end result. Yet “we veterans”, i.e. those that upheld the constitution of Freedom are being stonewalled from employment opportunities where we can add value. And those veterans with college degrees should gain a little back bone and take pride in siding with the ones that were willing to take on the work load while they went class. Stop with the chickenshit commentary and stop siding with the non-sensical policies that govern and eliminate talented experience gained in the veteran community. I personally have had enough with the over educated non-experienced people. This is what hurts our country, and in the aerospace industry will get people killed.
My experiences allowed me to work under the title od design engineer on the JSF program. I dont have a degree, but one day a guy asked me to stop saying I was an engineer, I asked why, and he said “you dont have a degree. I said okay smart ass; where did the first engineer ever earn his degree? My point is we need to be a little more open minded and recognize true education, skill, and talent. That is the mind set that will kill innovation and ability to think for our selves. And the Vets that were fortunate to get the degree, stand with those that wore the cloth. No is the time to make up for the work load you took advantage of while in the service.
CE? lmao you may fool non-military members with your claims but not me i was security forces i had friends in ce and i worked with them often they had such a chill and relaxed job and have plenty of time to take courses so stop bullshitting people you should be telling the truth and helping people not lying to justify how you got your degree.
What it seems like Sparx is saying and correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems as if it’s the difference in taking Krav Maga and studying Boxing, Jiu Jitsu, Kali all separately. While Krav is a quick study and can prepare you for being thrown into the fray, it is no substitute for taking the time to learn a few other martial arts in depth. It seems the initial military training is just enough to do the job that needs doing. They need you available quicker than quick and while it does afford you some advantages(working under stress), it can’t substitute for a full on education/degree.
So true and those in areas where they can actually pursue a degree while often find themselves working even longer to complete that degree. It is all about location in some cases and all about time in others. It may take longer due to mission essential requirements. In the end, it can be done!!
When I was deployed to Iraq, I completed my SNCOA professional development course and part of one graduate course (on different deployments) . I literally did this between combat missions. For the SNCOA (Senior Noncommissioned Officer Academy) correspondence course, I had to take the tests at the education center at the base in Iraq. As soon as I entered the building to take my first test, we received mortar fire and I had to dive on the floor and take cover. I felt disappointed because I only scored in the 80’s on that test but I really wanted to get over 90. In retrospect, I should have asked for extra credit for taking the test under fire.
I have found the best way to help employers forgo their requirements is to give them the experience of hiring an ex-military/veteran.
Once they experience the benefits of having a motivated professional on thier team that out-performs yet leads their peers and serves with dedication, they no longer need to require they have a degree.
Consider it like a branding question – how do you get Starbucks people to switch? You provide them a sample of something better and allow them to experience why it’s better. They automatically choose to change their buying behavior. Remember, the competition to Starbucks is not Maxwell House, it’s 5 hour energy.
This conversation would not even be needed if the military would allow enlisted personell to serve beyond twenty years.I served,and was forced out at age38.Almost too late to start anew. I see no reason why officers should be allowed to grow fat and lazy for life,while the backbone of the services,is tossed out in their prime. I enlisted in 1961,retied in 1981. I saw the Berlin wall go up,was in Florida during the Cuban crisis,saw combat in the Dominican Republic in 1965 and did three tours in Vietnam I get tossed,while some fat General gets to die in his uniform? I was lucky. I was able to get work in a small town police dept. Many of my fellow Vietnam vets were not so lucky.But no,a degree is nothing compared to being shot at..
I could hope employers would read this. I got out in 2006 and my veteran status got me interviews but when asked what military occupation was I could see their interest in me fade. I suppose a infantry fire team and later a squad leader is just not what employers are looking for, it was hard knowing the value I could bring to a work place but trying to convince potential employers that one I’m not stupid just cause I’m a grunt and two I’m not a killer.
I hear you, I am a veteran with a college degree and working with civilians right now! Let me tell you, civilians with patriotic values loves you, but those who blame government for their bad situation are the worst. The people we thought we were protecting are anti-military or zealous over your experiences. They think you are a threat because they know your perception out ways theirs and that is scary for a manager who has no experience abroad.
I am currently looking for work who are military friendly or have managers who have military backgrounds. It sucks working for someone who has no military background because they think we are crazy to join in the first place. They will never know what we went through, only other veterans can. These are the walls we face when we go back to our society brain washed by our media, while you were fighting and gaining intelligence in the real world, these civilians were judging and contemplating how stupid we were to join an organization that deals with shooting other people.
We fought and defended, while these civilians laughed and played. We sacrificed our time and bodies, while they reaped what we sewed. It’s tough being back, to see that our employment chances has not changed, but rather has gotten less fortunate and psychologically deteriorating.
My own question is how can we best quantify the comparison to show recently separated veterans as equal or better when compared to a recent college grad in a non-career related degree (just as many military occupational specialties do not translate directly into an equivalent civilian field- neither do many bachelors degrees)?
This discussion often seems to veer into intangibles, often time’s dependent on the hiring manager having some knowledge of the military and some respect for what it takes to be a member and yet I don’t think those are the people whose perceptions we’d hope to change. Essentially, Civilians do not hold an Honorable discharge certificate in the same esteem as a bachelor’s degree diploma- and they most certainly cannot be expected to understand and determine applicability from a DD214 (or similar document).
Being as we’re discussing private sector in general, the necessary data for a full statistical analysis of a “success rate” for veteran’s versus non-veteran’s is most likely unobtainable, – maybe the best route would be the income/success rates of non-bachelor degree workers with veterans status, and compare them to the population of non-degree/no-veteran, to display that we have a population of inviduals with unique skills and work ethic that on average should be acknowledged when hiring decisions are made.
I think ultimately the reality is that the 22 year-old recently discharged combat veteran with no college degree is currently treated in this tight employment market on par with an 18 year-old high school graduate, and placed far lower than other applicants his/her own age. Even if they receive a position, they are often paid less than other hires for the same role due to their lack of degree.
Many civilians have come to see the Military as a means to achieve a college degree (a perception desired by and driven by the military itself) , so when the veteran lacks a degree, the employer may (fairly/unfairly) draw many assumptions about that and the likelihood of the veteran being retained by the company long term.
Essentially I think it’s a case of “don’t tell them, SHOW them”- we need tangible proof, either I the case of statistics and/or success stories.
The tangible proof is, with out the veteran, no one in this country would have a degree. How about the ethic of respect.
This is tough because I’ve spoken with fellow veterans about this very subject and I hear the frustration they suffer. Civilian hiring managers are ignorant and why would we expect them to be anything but? Those that serve in our military are in an extreme minority. It’s a near-insurmountable challenge for transitioning veterans to convey to those that might hire them the value their experiences bring to the proverbial table. Yet, it’s the veteran’s responsibility to convey that, not the hiring manager’s to pull it out.
My worry is the theme that this discussion conveys: “Veterans have exceptional skills that ‘nobody’ seems to understand; woe is the veteran’s plight!” So we must covince civillians to MAKE AN EXCEPTION to their normal policies for the lowly veteran even though veterans are a very, very small portion of the talent pool they can hire from. I’m not trying to bang away at the home team (I’ve worn a uniform for almost twenty years and have two combat tours as a combat arms guy), but I think we can continue banging away at the civilian HR field, or we can just suck it up and get the degrees and certifications they require. Does that suck? Yeah. But at least Uncle Sam gives you quite a few dollars to go get the education you need (GI Bill, TA, etc). Just sayin’.
I meet far too many of my peers who are satisfied complaining about their plight than doing anything about it. They scoff at the opportunity to take even one class in their free time and never investigate the many colleges and universities that give significant credit for MOS schooling. Now, I can already hear the responses: “I’ve been deployed for five out of the last eight years! How dare you!” Well, it doesn’t matter what I think; it only matters what those civilian hiring managers think. We can complain about it or do something about it.
Another thing: not many veterans recognize that if they serve in the military for ten years WITHOUT A COLLEGE DEGREE, they are receiving pay and benefits (to include those that will pay for a degree and/or certifications and/or vocational training) that are far greater than a large majority of civilians without college degrees are receiving. 19 year old out of basic training gets a salaried position with 30 days paid vacation, GI Bill, TSP, cheap health insurance for them and their family, TSP (which most don’t invest in), room for advancement, management opportunities…that’s more than most college grads get for many years after graduating.
We all make choices; to serve or not to serve; to go to school in our free time or not to go to school in our free time; to be an infantryman or a logistics specialist; a CAV scout or a PAC Clerk. We chose to serve. That choice comes with benefits and consequences. We can play the victim and wring our hands or we can adapt and overcome.
Civilian hiring managers are under no obligation to bend their rules for us. Yeah, that sucks, but complaining about it isn’t gonna change that fact on a large scale. You can call me names, dispute my remarks, but that’s not gonna change employers. THEY DON’T HAVE TO! They have more than enough people to choose from. It’s easier for you to change (use your benefits to get a degree/certification/training) than to campaign for the bulk of employers to change to suit your needs.
Good luck my fellow veterans. With that in mind, I wholeheartedly support the efforts of people like Lisa Rosser and veterans organizations to educate employers on the Value of a Veteran.
Great article. I’m 28, a Marine infantry veteran, and heading into the last year of my bachelors, thanks to the Post-9/11 GI Bill. I’m also very involved in veteran transition issues. While I agree that informing hiring managers about the value of our unique and rare experiences is both needed and in our interests, I’d argue that it’s only one component of an issue which has several fronts, each of which is important for new veterans trying to enter the workforce.
We Need Degrees:
Despite all of our experiences (which vary widely depending on branch, occupational field, etc) our society and thus, many employers, place value on a bachelors degree for all the reasons already stated in this article. While we can debate the true value of those degrees, it’s unlikely to change the reality that failing to possess an undergraduate degree all but excises a large portion of potential jobs from the pool.
We Need Networks:
Good universities provide a solid education, but they also help provide a solid network. Many schools have entire departments devoted to developing campus recruiting and linking up good students with alumni. Beyond the classroom, organizations like American Corporate Partners help vets build contacts with professionals in their field of interest, under the presumption that those who haven’t served have a significant head start in doing so. As more jobs are filled through effective networking than through blind application, it stands to reason that vets should build and use networks if they hope to enjoy the same success rate as those who haven’t served.
We Need to Communicate Effectively:
While we wait for employers to understand our value, we can work on better understanding ourselves. Beyond general resume wisdom (few HR people know what your NAM with a gold star is), I think we need to ensure we’re speaking a language others understand. Programs like Edge for Vets (Fordham University) help by making vets articulate and understand the strengths they developed in the military and how they apply to school and work, then introducing them to business leaders who provide feedback and serve as contacts.
“Held responsibility for $2 million of distributed equipment.. designed and delivered training in technical procedures to over 40 Marines, resulting in…” – these statements probably apply to the average 22 year old infantry Corporal. Is the Corporal saying these statements?
Like RN said, we’re fortunate that we’re now provided with the financial resources to attend virtually any school we can get accepted to – many of the best universities in the country participate in the Yellow Ribbon Program. While I know many vets in college, I know many more who elect not to go, or choose to go to the easiest/fastest school they can find. In an age where the government literally pays you to go to college, I fail to understand those decisions.
As an aside, I’m wary of generalizing veterans – there are such things as bad Marines and un-sat soldiers, just as there are stellar Marines and exemplary soldiers. Propagating the idea that employers should expect the same level of leadership and excellence from every vet they encounter doesn’t faithfully portray the variance which exists in the military experience, and could eventually backfire.
Daniel, I think you’ve explained it the best…of the vets and non-vets I’ve helped write resumes, everyone has the same problem with distinguishing themselves on paper by applicably translating their experience and knowledge. And with that having been said, most military vets are speaking another language entirely and don’t have any idea what the problem is.
Reblogged this on iEmploy.
Having recently retired from the Army after 20 years in combat arms, one would think that I, as well as any other infantry, artillery, or tanker are lacking in the skills that many businesses require. As I look through job postings I see that many are looking for candidates with “organizational skills”, “ability to multi task” and can “handle a high stress environment”. Team building and management experience are a plus; however, the first thing most often stated as a qualifier is that 4 year degree. As enlisted Soldiers progress through the ranks, we often take on the extra responsibilities so that the officer we work side by side with can have time to do what he or she needs to do without stressing over the menial tasks such as issues that arise from our subordinates. If counted it as a failure on my part if my officer was still at work after 4 pm (that’s 1600 for you military types) working on soldier issues.
Bottom line is that we, as senior enlisted non-commissioned officers have several years of experience of team building, and managing personnel, often with outstanding results. I for one always worked best when the pressure was on and handling various tasks from different levels! We may lack that piece of paper that says we learned some text book version of management, leadership or whatever the focus may be. Does spending 4 years in a class room gaining a degree provide that experience as well?
Don’t get me wrong, there are things that need to be learned in the classroom, which is why I have been working on mine that past few years and am almost done. I would like to think that juggling a full time career in the military AND having that degree will give me that extra consideration for that new career. Perhaps then, I can show whomever my employer may be what a person with military experience can bring to the table.
The bottom line to employers is, “what skills does this applicant have?” If those skills were acquired through a formal college education, or through military training should be of little importance. That being the case, when comparing two candidates who have comparable skills, it is the “soft skills” that will distinguish the successful job seeker from the also-rans. Those soft skills are the ones where military vets will often exceed and include communications (upward to management, and downward to subordinates), leadership skills, decision-making ability, commitment to goals, etc., etc,. etc.
Agreed
I am a retired military vet (Navy E7) with two Masters Degrees from a traditional state university. After being unemployed for over 10months during the transition, I finally ended working for a company that pays me little over $15/hour (with 3 months of probation period which means zero benefits for the first 3 months.). I have submitted my resume to over 700 places and they don’t seem to value my military experience nor my education.
Have you looked into working for Sprint? We value military service and education.
Hi Tom,
You sound way over qualified to be working in a $15/hour job. If I were you I would reach out to all those contacts you made while you were in the military and start talking to them. Jobs are not found by posting resumes on the internet, they are found through contacts and inside connections. I bet you have those connections. You have about a year after you get out to call the first job a “mistake” and move to another job/industry. I would also take a look at your resume and make sure it is civilian friendly. Good luck.
All interesting comments. I am by far the person to quantify why employers think a college degree hold more value, however I can offer my opinion and state that I think college is not all its cracked up to be. I have done a tour of recruiting and while working with several high school students it was evident that they were all expected in some way to pursue an education/college upon graduation. Here I noted a social expectation that if you did not at least attempt to go to college after graduation, then you were considered a failure and doomed to join the military. I have been in the military for 23 years now, and I know that all those officers with college degrees irrelevant areas still lean heavily on the experience of the enlisted force not only for their own training but also to actually go out there and get the job done. So employers that default to the officer ranks simply because they have a degree may be a little naive when it comes to actually understanding the talents and capabilities of the enlisted forces.
You make a good point about officers. I am and Air Force E-7 and most of us can tell whether or not an officer was prior enlisted within the first 3 minutes of talking to them. 99% of the prior enlisted officers are better leaders and managers than college/ROTC/Academy grads. If that doesn’t speak to the wealth of actual knowledge, skills, and experience gained by enlisted service members, I’m not sure what does.
With that said, I completed a bachelor’s and master’s degree while being deployed, TDY, or otherwise not home for 4 of the last 7 years. I do not have an office job. I am flight line Weapons. So, it is a matter of time management and prioritization. I am also against taking time away from work for extra-curricular activities because, as someone else posted, it does place the burden of getting the mission done on the others that are left at work. The military is paying for us to go to school and I encourage everyone to put in the time and effort and knock it out.
I am a Marine Veteran and My husband and I will be unemployed in August, with the push to hire veterans we mostly find companies who want to hire veterans for positions with no higher education. I would like to know what corporations you spke to that are looking for veterans with degree. We both have degrees and I am half way finished with a Masters…..
I was in the Navy for 10 years as a Naval Aviator. When I transitioned out of the Navy the economy was in a downturn and jobs were not overly abundant. I worked with JMO recruiters and put out a lot of resumes on my own.
While I agree with a lot of points in the above article it is guilty of doing exactly what it is arguing against; that would be undervaluing experience and/or education. My Bachelors degree, MBA, and multiple professional certificates is different from my experience in the Navy. Anyone who has taken a government accounting course and then expects their four years doing “military” accounting to be the same as an accounting graduate is sadly mistaken.
One mistake I think that most people transitioning out of the military make is not translating their resume. There are plenty of examples on how to make the translations and a lot of military friendly recruiters will help make the translation. The other issue is the expectations that transitioning members have. Right now the military pays well compared to a lot private sector jobs. After 10 in the Navy with no business experience I thought I was worth the same on the outside as I was still in the Navy. This assumption can be/is unreasonable. However, after 3 years I am now making more than I did in the Navy. I whole-heartedly believe this is due to my experience in the Navy teaching me how to work hard and be adaptable combined with my education.
My point in all this is to look at the skills you have and set reasonable expectations. Transitioning military members without a degree may not have the same qualifications as new graduates with bachelor degrees. Take the opportunities the military and VA give you and get a degree. Like it or not that is what employers are looking for in a prospective candidate. My other piece of advice is to think long term. The pay may not be there on day one but in the right position all of that will come.
Good luck!
I am a Navy veteran of over 25 years enlisted service. It is my opinion that the non-military sector has little if any understanding of the military. As has been stated, military members work arduous hours in hostile work environments, with some of the most sophisticated technology. And they do this voluntarily, sometimes thousands of miles away from their family and friends, in austere, even spartan conditions. I think I can say we only want to be treated as equals. That doesn’t happen, even though we are required to have our own degrees (not just the officers). Our training can be broken down into civilian equivalencies, apprenticeships, even journeyman and master tradespersons. Until the prejudices are put aside, and we are seen for our accomplishments, we will continue to be treated as inferiors. My daily routine as a military member put me in charge of (and held accountable for) multimillion dollar inventories and systems. When you hire me, you hire one of the most technologically trained, proactive leaders in the country. How does that rate compared to someone that might have a 6 month internship, or just a diploma? Apparently, nothing. And they say it is an EQUAL opportunity? It is a good thing I am going back to college to earn my third Bachelor’s, to add to my AAS in Graphic Design and Multimedia. Maybe now, I will be seen as equally educated. This is just my own opinion… does it ring true?
Third Bachelors? You have given me hope also. I thought I had failed by having to go back to college for my second bachelors. I only graduated three years ago did a number of things and now return to add a degree in computer science to a degree in Multimedia.
Yeah I completely agree with you there is nothing that I have done as a civilian that is harder than deploying yet employers don’t consider military experience at all when hiring. They would rather hire a 21 year old with a bachelors who has never worked a day in their life, than a veteran who is used to working 80+ hours a week with no days off in Afghanistan. Yet most employers think that a bachelors degree displays more work ethic than military experience.
This just made me feel alot more hopeful.
In addition to all the reasons mentioned above, and I admit I didn’t read them all. There is a perception in the business world, that all veterans are former drill sergeants and cannot adapt to the civilian lifestyle. I have been asked during interviews, “How do you separate or apply your military background to the civilian world?” My answer always revolves around training, and how the military is one of the most lean organizations in the world.
There are serious employers who are actively reaching out to Veterans. Some of the large corporations also have internal military networks that serve as employee resource groups. Citi, MetLife, Prudential and others are making great progress in adding Veterans to their workforce.
This was a refreshing post to come across. In the previous couple of months, I’ve been feeling the pain of this in my own life. In addition to over 10 years of experience as a military print journalist, editor and photographer, I also have years of experience in professional roles under five major corporations (working as a finance assistant and in the realm of newspaper marketing and trade show marketing, as well in the Pentagon as a media analyst). And yet the demonstration of that knowledge for about a third of my life is not enough for most employers. I’m currently in the Washington, DC, area, and no matter how solid my references and credentials, and how many times I hear, “What a unique skill set,” the degree question comes up, and all bets are off. Thank you for highlighting what I believe to be true, that military service can be more valuable, or just as valuable, as paying for a load of courses, many of which I find to be irrelevant to our chosen career fields and often seem to be mandated for the purposes of fattening the pockets of institutions. I’d love to see an educational system more personalized to the student’s interests and specific career needs. An overhaul is dearly needed in our country.
I couldn’t concur more with the above comments. I do appreciate those few companies who have made sincere efforts in support of our veterans. However, what I’m reading herein is that the majority of the efforts are simply window dressing, or poorly executed, or just aren’t sincere…
On the opposite side of this argument – I’m a highly educated former officer with Pentagon experience. Now, let me tell you about my experience and what I found in Atlanta, Georgia on the professional side. I initially interviewed with a major “Cola,” company and when discussing position in branding I was simply told – “Oh you didn’t go to Wharton or to Emory,” we don’t hire from anywhere else. I guess working working the “Army Strong,” campaign and branding for both the Army and Army Reserve mattered little…I then, for about two weeks went to work for a firm in “Buckhead,” and found myself at a 6th grader’s desk and in a zero veterans environment working with many young folks who had NO respect for military service – needless to say I left that job. I then interviewed later on with a major “Trade Show Manufacturer” – something I had experience with in the Army(Trade Show Management). One of owners really saw the potential – the other was absolutely clueless on what a military officer brings to the table…I’m sure the same rings true for senior enlisted as well.
Interesting though is that of the 250 or more job applications I’ve carefully dropped this summer – most in Atlanta – I’ve received only three interviews. Now, outside Atlanta I’ve applied for a dozen or so jobs in various cities to include Columbus Ohio, D.C., and Orlando. At least every other resume I drop in those cities gets a hit – phone call, email inquiry or follow-up interview. I’ve got a pending six figure offer in one of those cities as well.
My thought is Atlanta just isn’t there yet…it’s got kind of an isolated work culture that is used to hiring out of a few elite or local Universities and it’s a bit of a “Bubba Culture.” My advice to you is that if you do find employment there – try and work for one of a few military friendly employers in the city such as Home Depot or UPS, and be particularly “ruthless,” in pursuit of your goals….you will find a number of people who just don’t get it…Atlanta requires much work…they think we are all “drill sergeants,” or worse yet, “just shooters.”
Unplugging for a while…beach bound!
So, I would recommend for current veterans, why not try to get an online degree while serving in the military. I know its very difficult because of all the other responsibilities, but at least that way you can come out with valuable military experience & a bachelor’s degree. The only con I can see to that would be maybe employers don’t take online bachelor’s degrees professionally? I don’t know, I suppose that varies.
so very true!
If you’re going to do ONLINE, it must from community college, state college, and grad school. Don’t U of Phoenix…waste of your money because it’s not fully accredited.
Hi Brutus – University of Phoenix is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association. For a list of all institutions accredited through the HLC go to http://www.ncahlc.org/Directory-of-HLC-Institutions.html
I think he meant not to use a for profit school. Which regularly do not fully transfer to state or private schools.
I do want to salute you for your article. I concur with you wholeheartedly, that our time in uniform should be worth more than a piece of paper given to some young kid, who spent more time on their phone doing Facebook.
I saw the electronic card, and may be contacting you in the near future. I look forward to any input you have on the post I made. And I am more than willing to shoot a copy of the duties I performed while in uniform. If you can help or advise me. On which things to include, and how to best say it.
Feel free to compensate contact me at pmc.tex.1percent@gmail.com or 919-440-1356.
My name is Jason Holloway. I saw your link to linkedin, so I intend to connect with you. I just wanted you to know who I am, so that when you see the request, you know who I am, how I found you, and why I want to connect with you.
Thank you,
I think it’s awesome that you are sticking up for Veterans. I think the hiring process in the civilian sector caters towards 21 year olds with a Bachelors degree. I just completed my bachelor’s degree, I have been deployed 3 times, and I have 7 years of active duty military experience. I thought it would be easy to find a job but I still haven’t been able to find a job because they just don’t care if you have military experience or not. All they care about is what you have accomplished as a civilian. So basically I waisted 7 years of my life in the military and 3 of those years in Afghanistan. Even though my 7 years in the military was 1000 times harder than completing a bachelors degree (which was a breeze), civilians are just biased towards military experience. Granted you can get a government job, but even then they care more about previous government experience than military experience. Ultimately however I am a hard worker and I’m smart, so all those companies that discriminate towards veterans are only hurting themselves because veterans are hard workers and it’s their loss. Also a Bachelors degree is a joke it’s the easiest thing I’ve ever accomplished in my life, high school was more challenging than college. Bachelors degrees shouldn’t count for anything because a two year old can make it through college now days. College is too easy and all Universities care about is getting money from their students. Completing a degree is nothing in comparison to military experience especially veterans who have deployed. If an employer thinks that getting a degree is harder than going to war, than they will never have a successful company because their companies are being ran by spoiled college kids who will never have the same maturity level and experience as veterans.
Could nt agree with you more. A note to the wise; in regards to some of these government sector contractors, the reason they want the degree is so they can justify higher charges to government programs. i.e. slow up the program suck funds dry and in the end stick it to the tax payer while they make off with billions for themselves.
Ever try getting an online degree while underway 90% of the year with no internet and the 10% spent in port working 10-12 hour days with duty days every 3 days? Yes, that is how the submarine force operates. Army, Air Force, Marines, …all shore duty with no excuse. No degree can replace the pride and knowledge that I am qualified in submarines.
Yes, I have enrolled in school after getting out of the service. I’m going for an EET degree and, here is an amazing concept, have not learned one new thing. How again does military experience not equate to a college degree when I gained more knowledge in 12 years of military service than I have with only 1 semester of college until my degree?
College degrees, nothing but a load of rubbish and waste of money with too much emphasis placed upon them.
This is only my opinion and take it for what it is worth. Our society has changed to a more liberal anti-military community. Not all companies mind you are like this, but they had to learn from veterans within about the qualities brought to the table. Colleges instruct their students in a more liberal ideal and that has an impact on those long after graduation. Just look at the number of campuses which protest against military recruiters.
I served 22 years in the Army, managed 30 individuals, saved countless lives in combat zones and many more accomplishments. I worked for three years as a property manager for single Soldier housing and that schedule was equally demanding as my military schedule. As you raise in rank and responsibility you spend countless more time at work at all hours and days. I was very good at what I did and became that “Go To” guy that the command would seek out when those last minute emergencies popped up.
With the military budget cuts, We were laid off last year and now I’m going on a year and 3 months of unemployment. I pushed over 150 resumes before even being laid off and now the number I can’t even track. Today I’m scheduled to return to college to finish that bachelors degree; but am very disillusioned with the civilian community.
I have had professionals review my resumes and cover letters; they all have claimed those to be outstanding, but the quality of my resumes haven’t provided me anything. It doesn’t help that I am searching in a small job market (family demands staying in Hawaii), but I had submitted for other positions on the mainland and only three called back. I did get top candidate on a few, but the positions were cancelled due to budget issues.
Ok I’m going to leave a reply. I am a 4 year college udergraduate with a Bachelors of Science degree. I stumbled onto this forum because I am going to enlist for 4 years so I can use it to pay for my Masters maybe.
All you guys saying going back to school and getting another degree just because you don’t get a job is almost as if you running in circles.
Employers look at trends. When they look at your resume, its true you have done in a variety of things. But where is your career headed? Does it go in line with the company’s goals/ values? What do you have in your previous work experience with other companies that can make this company better? How is it applicable to what THEY are looking for? Get really good at a particular area and focus on it. Yeah, you have all those misc. skills but your largest skillset should be where your career is as displayed on your resume.
So when you apply to that company for that one specific position with that one specific skillsets you are really good at, they say “aha!” this guy really wants to make this career out of this and not just a job that puts food on the table.
Thats why even people with nothing on their resumes after college do internships- low pay, but you learn a some skillsets. From there you network and get a good paying job.
That is good advice. Your Resume should always be tailored to the job you are applying for. I am an E-7 in the Army with over 13 years of military service. Both Navy and Army. I can tell you one thing for sure. I have not met an Officer yet that has the leadership experience and skills that a Senior NCO should have. Most Officers only do menial tasks such as signing paperwork that the senior NCO has prepared. They almost never get down and lead Soldiers. If you asked most, if not all Officers what leadership is they would make up something because they don’t really get training on leadership. If you asked a NCO you would here, “Leadership is the ability to provide purpose, motivation and direction to accomplish the mission”. We are taught this from our very first leadership position and are required to understand and complete this action with everything we do. Read the US Army NCO creed and then read the Officer creed. If you can find it that is. As a NCO you are required to know this creed and live by it. You must be able to recite it to be given the opportunity to become a leader. Ask an Officer about their creed. I have done this throughout my years to prove a point. I have only met one Officer that even knew they had a creed. Sadly this is true. So think twice before you hire an Officer because they have a degree and you think that means they can lead someone. Good luck to all of you and keep your third point of contact down.
I feel like the military takes a lot of effort. I’m proud to have a country (the U.S) with a standing military. They have great training and experience. However I feel that many veterans lack the capable skills in a professional field to be on equal level as a college graduate. I will grant you that many college graduates only went through the motion to get their degree. While at the same time there are more veterans I met who have the same feel of only going thief the motions of the military without retaining practical applications that should have been learned. As far as communication goes there is a 5,800 mile distance from military and civilian communication. As amazing as our military training is, it hurts our veterans when it comes to jobs that require more than following exact regimen. These men and women have a hard time trusting their own experience and knowledge from the way the military breaks them down to be the best soldiers. This is why I think a college graduate would generally be a better option. Until the day our military can help reprogram our soldiers for civilian life. I by the way believe in a three year mandatory service post H.S. graduation.
The degree requirement is USUALLY followed by a statement that indicates that the degree can be replaced by a period of equivalent experience. I’ve never seen a job requirement that wasn’t negotiable….if you have a fantastic counter offer.
The only problem vets have with that, is that they don’t understand how WELL their formal military training, as well as team building, organizational, leadership, process improvement, and problem solving skills translate to what businesses are looking for…no matter what their career field was. Cooks, artillery personnel and street sweepers all had to undergo formal training, make schedules, work as a team, lead, follow, provide OJT, run projects/programs, relocate, report as ordered, streamline, reduce costs, recognize needs, mitigate risks, memorize paperwork requirements, utilize technology, encourage personal and professional development…the list goes on and on and on.
They don’t use the right wording on their resume that translates their experience to a career that they are actually very well qualified for. A 4 year college student who has no leadership experience is in NO WAY qualified for most of the jobs that a 4 year military veteran is qualified for. It’s impossible to get out of a 4-year military term, for example, without becoming great at giving training and briefings on the fly. That’s just one thing that if stated properly, can set you apart. Also, you probably have a lot of experience with automated parts catalogs and manuals. You probably know ALL the requirements for utilizing and storing Government Owned Property. You most likely can look up any military standard, and understand it, in a matter of minutes. Civilians without years of defense contract experience can’t do any of these things. Every manufacturer has to follow OSHA requirements that you probably understand better than they do…you might have even provided training on valuable subjects…over and over again…and it’s mundane to you, but coveted by a prospective employer.
If the list of duties and accomplishments on your DD214 is longer than your resume, then you are holding out.
Having been out of the military since 1997 and then spending the following 15 years working in commercial and defense industries, I know how to translate the training and experience on a DD214 into a resume that makes someone very marketable. (Seriously, think of ALL the crap you went through…and grew from!)
If you have a 1 page resume and are getting no hits on it, or aren’t successfully interviewing, find a resume writer or a headhunter who places technical and defense contract positions, sit down with them with your DD214 and find out what it is they are looking for and how your experience translates…because it DOES. Once you are armed with a well written resume (more than 1 page – no matter what anyone else says), and have more of an understanding of how TALENTED AND NEEDED YOU ARE, you will interview much more successfully with or without a degree.
I am a veteran with 24 years of service and believe that the military needs to do better preparing us for life after the service. I made an error in assuming that my military work experience in electromechanical technology/HVAC would be accepted by civilian employers. For example, I interviewed for a service manager’s position at a HVAC company in NC and was told” I see you’ve done well in the service, but what have you done since leaving the service that qualifies you for this position?” I had my AAS degree before leaving the service and I acquired my BBA degree after retiring from the military, but that did not seem to matter as well. A few years ago, the Society for Human Resource Managers (SHRM) conducted a survey of hiring managers across the United States and found 60 percent had a problem with military experience and 48 percent believed veterans had PTSD. see http://pt.slideshare.net/shrm/shrm-poll-hiringveteransfinal,, So, many of your assumptions about civilian hiring mangers are true. What can be done about this?
First, veterans need to be told the truth before leaving the service about what they will really face in the civilian world. Civilians value civilian work experience over anything else, and if you have civilian work experience and college, its all the better. Second, colleges and universities need to include information on veterans in their human resource classes. I noticed while taking undergraduate and graduate level human resource classes, there was no mention of veterans, but, nearly every other group was discussed. Sadly, most veterans are going to acquire entry level jobs regardless of their experience level, however, as times goes on and they prove themselves to the civilian community things do get better.
This is why the unemployment rate for those who have been out of the service for 15 or more years is lower than for those who have just separated. Lastly, few people know that there is no federal law (some states do have laws)prohibiting discrimination against veterans in employment and housing, (veterans are not a protected class as outlined in chapter 7 of the civil rights act) shockingly H.R. 2654: Veterans and Servicemembers Employment Rights and Housing Act of 2013 failed in committee without a whisper from any major news organization. Maybe, we need to have our leaders reconsider this proposed act and pass it. It is also sad that employers have to be promised tax breaks by the government to hire veterans. Any company that accepts money/tax breaks to hire veterans should be ashamed of themselves.
I don’t care how you spin it a BA opens a lot of doors that are otherwise closed. It may not make you any smarter but it opens doors.
Way back when, ie even before the Vietnam era, I was a snot nosed Private who quit school in the 10th grade. Did the GED bit and rose to the rand of SGT when Vietnam came along. Went to OCS and soon realized I’d better do something about college if I hoped to remain long enough to retire. Lots of folks poo-poo’d that and partied thinking doing a good job was enough – it wasn’t. They were the first to go in the reduction after Vietnam. I spent 2 1/2 years in Vietnam (not “deployments” – years). Between tours I got a degree. That saved me from several RIFFs. I eventually went to graduate school and receved an MA all without costing me a dime. (The Army was good to me – but I was also useful to the Army) – Eventually retired as an LTC and now they call me professor all because I saw the wisdom of getting a formal education.
Reading some of the comments above I see others have taken the same route and I commend them. Some however can’t seem to find the time – to those I say “you’d better or in today’s job market you will be left behind.
At the very least military experience should provide people with a bachelors degree for the industry that most closely transfers to the job the veteran had in the military. Especially if that industry or job within that industry requires a bachelors degree for an entry level position. For example: I was a Navy journalist and photographer and also did various other duties, but for the most part I was a photojournalist. When I was discharged for a medical condition after three years I was forced to go live with my mother because I had a limited amount of money to survive on. As a 25 year old in the prime of my life I felt pretty embarrassed and at a disadvantage in the dating world because of this. So I desperately tried getting a job that would pay enough income to get me out of her house and into an apartment at the very least. The only jobs I felt that my experience easily transferred to were the ones I found related to media. I worked in a public affairs center when I was not deployed on a ship. When I was on the ship I would spend on average about ten hours of my day in the ships public affairs shop and the other five to six were usually spent doing manual labor. Of course sailors get quite a bit of time to BS with one another (goof off and be silly) and build camaraderie with one another. To compare the fun and debauchery a college student engages in when he or she is not in class or studying (that leaves quite a bit of free time) to the average veteran’s time off and actually even begin to criticize veterans as being drunken womanizers is an insult that should lead to the same punishment veterans face for being caught for half of the unbecoming behaviors college students engage in. In fact drinking excessively and having gratuitous sex with college aged women on a ship while in port and especially while underway will get you disciplinary review board. That is where one would stand at attention when speaking and at parade rest (hands behind your back) when not speaking in the E-7 lounge while wearing your most formal working attire while all of the senior non commissioned officers (similar to a civilian jobs mid to high level managers) who decide to attend take turns interrogating you and screaming in your face if any of your responses are deemed disrespectful, defensive, irrelevant to the situation or incident that landed you there, or your tone and/or demeanor does not present an image of military bearing at any time. This may or may not be followed by NJP; which is nonjudicial punishment a.k.a. going to see the old man a.k.a. Commanding Officer. NJP almost always results in a service member getting busted down in rank; required to do 45 days of restrictive duty (In the Navy that is the equivalent of what a reasonable civilian would describe as being sentenced to a floating slave labor camp); discharged from the Navy with a less than honorable discharge; or any combination of the above. Sailors and all service members do not get to choose when they want to deploy or the equivalent of studying abroad which always gives a job candidate quality points. Working and studying abroad a.k.a deploying is a part of the job and most veterans have worked, studied, and have had quite a few hours of free time in civilian clothes and without their supervising non commissioned officer breathing down their neck, experiencing civilian life in these countries by mingling with foreign people and gaining an understanding of their culture. A far cry from the type of experience a student studying abroad receives from their foreign academic institutions and tours led by their institutional instructors allowing them to see a foreign land inside a glass bubble. In fact a serviceman or woman who goes on a deployment and receives “liberty” (yes they call it liberty or lib) will actually get left behind in that country by themselves if they do not get back to the ship before it leaves the port to continue its scheduled mission. For any reason. They will not rescue you if you get in trouble and they will not wait for you if you are late. To shorten this up a little you learn to become a man or a woman in the military while the typical college student is really just as sheltered and nurtured by the institution as they were when they were living at home. They just do not have mommy around, but mommy is only a phone call away. See when you are underway mommy cannot catch a cruise ship out to the Navy ship hop aboard and spend a few days with you when you get home sick. In fact they often shut down all vehicles of communication with the civilian world and these blocks of time can last anywhere from a couple of days to several weeks. They often do not want anyone to know the ships exact location for security reasons. I think I learned more about the world in my three years spent in the Navy than I did from any textbook. I know for a fact that my maturity and development into a responsible adult came from the military, but still I could not get a job that paid more than minimum wage plus small commissions or tips and required nothing more than a GED as far as academics were concerned until I went to college to earn this worthless piece of paper with my degree, name and institution printed on it in fancy letters. I know there are some routes you can take in the military that will directly transfer but those jobs are competitive, require long commitments (often six years) and many people fail the schools required because they let more people commit to these positions than they actually need for recruiting purposes. Nuclear reactor mechanics and systems techs are one such job. They also require sub duty often since there are only so many ships with nuclear powered engines. So with the exception of those jobs, being a military veteran is basically a waste of time on paper because the academics have lobbied for the exclusive right to be the gatekeepers of entry level jobs at corporations and professional certifications. Now that these are really the only jobs people can survive on I would like to argue that we have a little bit of an anti trust violation here, or monopoly if you will. You have the freedom to pursue happiness as long as you have lots of student debt, have a permission through a peace of paper called a degree, and you have read all of the prescribed books that have been published by Mcgraw Hill. I call McGraw Hill life in a box. You get more credit for having life experience for sitting in a library reading their books religiously than you do for actually working around the globe and seeing the world with your own eyes. I wonder why some of those big financial institutions and major industry players that look good having work experience at have such a high retention rate. Because college does not teach people how to work. The End.
if all the service men united and formed a voting coalition-block they could get laws passed to help there situations.
get all you parents and relatives to understand your situition and have them vote your way.
sing a song make video`s on the crap that goes down all to regularly.
the facts need to be known by all .
bro bammy made some good new laws and changes . but you still must pass stringent qulilfication tests to get state licineces , to be allowed to work in many fields. this means that you need to study the code books .
too bad most supervisors, know all to well service guys wont study.
given free time they entertain them selfs being stuip or worse.
This is Really great article to read. . . But i will recommend Life experience Degree.
Me? I’m a veteran with two BA degrees and many years of work experience military and civilian… I’ve found that all have been to my benefit. It’s not so much a matter of either/or. In my experience, it seems to be more about the entire package. Sometimes it’s just the luck of the draw. A person can be the crème brulee but there will always be those who will prefer Jell-O. Ok, I stole that from a movie (My best friend’s wedding) but nevertheless it’s still true. All of it is subjective and in the long run it’s best to be yourself and not worry who will accept what. If you’re meant to get the job or be in the relationship or whatever, it will happen.
Though I can agree with most of your commentary, I do disagree with the fact that the military training in a specified field is not respected, or should I say… “Hold the same weight” to corporations fulfilling contracts in the DOD sectors. For example, Pratt and Whitney develops military engines for aircraft right? Yet they maintain the thought process to only hire degreed people for one purpose and one purpose only. That purpose is because they “the corporate entity” can charge the government more than that of hiring a veteran that just came out of this very specialized industry. At the same time, the corporation gets away with hiring less knowledgeable and experience people that the tax payer is paying for. Example, as a contractor I sat next to a guy that was working on a double masters. His first MD was in “Aviation Psychology”….LOL, I was like what the heck is that! None-the-less, he never touched an airplane in his life, let alone understand how the military worked by way of aviation support or how the logistics of the industry operated. Get this…His position is titled Customer Support “Engineer”. At the end of the day, I was unqualified for the direct hire in a position where I was far more experienced/”Educated” and understood way more about the components and functionality of our military air-wing than he was. Did I get hired? Nope… Any why? BECAUSE; my education was stripped from me when I got out of the service. I don’t know about you per se. However; I do know that the minimum shift we worked was 12 hrs. a day while in service, so how you got your degrees is beyond me. In the end, Good for you! And, I sincerely mean that. I don’t think the point of this thread is to talk about the peeps that got their multiple degrees, but more so, about how to recognize the veterans experience as a true bona-fide, accredited education. My brother-in-law… the same thing, retired after 20 years in the air-wing as a flight engineer (One sharp dude), and now is being told… “Hey man, now you have to go get educated. I am sorry, but even having to write this is a bit frustrating in maintaining my composure. So here is a suggestion for you and all the others that have gotten the “multiple degrees.” Don’t tout, instead help a brother out!
Respectfully,
Friends in low places…
PS. I bleed red white and blue. Anyone that disagrees can go pound sand.
I have both and they both have gotten me nowhere. I’m tired of seeing less qualified people get hired just because they know someone. Companies need to stop their bs “we hire vets” routine because every single one I’ve ever applied to looks down on veterans
Here’s the real reason that these companies require a 4 year degree. I’m not looking for the entry level job that I will provide you. I’m looking for the executive level that you may attain after some time working for the company and that job requires the four year degree. I can’t wait for you to get that degree at that time. I also don’t want to have to correct your writing until you do either. This is from a former Mustang and now vet. You can learn it all OJT but, business is a competition and my competitors are bringing in those who have the degree, They have been polished and have seen information that may take you a while to come in contact with in the real world if you see it at all. Being exposed to this type of knowledge reduces the learning curve and gives you the Cliff Notes to our work environment and all because you happen to make good decisions you are more likely to make better decisions if you have the education. The other cruel fact is I want to reduce the competition pool while getting a known quantity of excellence. (Your military expertise may not be a match) If I say everyone can apply I have to read though 1000 resumes and people do lie on resumes. Vice, 250 resumes and a bachelors degree is easily verifiable. Also, remember there are also jobs that civilians almost never get and those are military, primarily enlisted only like government cyber security with a clearance and they pay extremely well.
Well said Joseph, I agree with your take of military v. college degree. Employers are looking for quality v. quantity. I served in the Navy for 12 years in leadership positions and have a Bachelors degree. I’m working on a 2nd Bachelor to fill the gaps from my first Bachelors degree, which I attained online while serving in the Navy. Plus I’m working on a paralegal certificate to ber certified in CA, and pursuing my masters degree in 2017. I will be using my GI Bill for the Masters degree, I was granted a scholarship that paid for my certificate program, and I use financial aid -BOGG in CA, to pay my 2nd Bachelors degree.
Why all of this schooling? Because if I want to earn a livable wage I need to have the knowledge – Knowledge is power! plus…..
Also, employers need to see verifiable credentials that I can handle a job, manage resources, handle staff, and be current with government regulations.
Furthermore, a person who has a Bachelors degree and military experience combined with a positive attitude, humility and willingness to take an entry-level position, will be considered and hired for the job. I’d venture to say that 50% of getting hired is based on how people are perceived – their attitude and communication skills.
While working for Veteran Services counselor at a community college, I noticed that some veterans have an attitude that comes off as “I’m better than everybody else because I served my country” and feel entitled to treat others as subordinates; just acting as if they were still in the military. A vet with this kind of attitude will push away any potential employer.
You bring up a great point: a bachelor’s degree is verifiable while military evals, are not. It would be more difficult for an HR recruiter to research and call every single command to verify 10+ years of performance evaluations. In the military, you know that Admin won’t be providing information to just anybody who calls, that’s if the HR finds the right number to that command and is able to get hold of someone.
In contrast, college transcripts, GPA, and recommendation letters from professors are an email or phone call away.
My experience with gaining a college education while in the military is that some troops got commander approval to take classes, while screwing over the rest of their flight. The 12-14 hour shits turned into 14-16 hour shifts with less manpower to do the job. Usually it was a dirtbag, and could even be nice not having them around. Then they were graded higher in evaluation reports and given preferential marks for advancement because they were “attempting to better themselves through education”. WTF! They were not even competent at their job, because they were always attending class instead of performing their job. I refused to screw over my brothers in arms and effectively penalized myself for carrying other’s slack.
I like many other vets have heard I was “over qualified”. I heard it for the first time when I was 22. It blew my mind. I had only been in four years. The reason we get told that, is because the managers and hiring officials are afraid we will take their job, based on our experiences and ability to multitask. So, after a few years of dead end jobs, I went back to the military. I got out again when I had the chance at a good civilian job. I was hired explicitly on having been military.
There are jobs that do prefer military personnel. The railroad companies love us. And pay damn good. But, you won’t have much of a family life. On the plus side, first year will be roughly $50k within five years depending on locale and your seniority, you could be making $125k. No degree needed. Railroad retirement is the best if you can make it that long. The avg retirement for a conductor or engineer is around $9k/ month. Oh, I know I mentioned that you won’t spend much time at home? Well, to compensate for that your spouse gets a 50% retirement check for having endured you being away from home so much. I got laid off after obama got elected because the economy tanked. The layoff lasted 18 months. So, I got a job as a military contactor. They also preferred my military experience to a college degree. With them I was making $25/ hour. Still not chump change. Life happens, I left there. Have had several mechanic jobs, some good, some bad. If you’re good, and fast, you can make good money turning wrenches. I had one job where I was averaging $2500 every two weeks. Unfortunately that company went out of business. The downside is, unlike the military, you have to provide your own tools. It doesn’t take long to rack up some serious tool bills. I have roughly $125k in tools.
Then when the VA says it’s going to take 18 months before they can see me, I headed back home, because they asked if two weeks would be soon enough to get looked at. I got a simple job while I knocking out the appointments. But I was spending more driving back and forth from work for VA appointments than I was making, since for the first couple of months I was averaging 3-5 appointments each week. So, I decided I would be better off scheduling VA appointments around school. So I started taking classes during the fall 2013 semester.
Those who think that the military doesn’t carry the same weight as school are mistaken. Why do universities give credit for military schools? I had never taken a class in my life, and my military courses racked up my first 70 credit hours. They couldn’t count all of my 108 hours of accredited military training, they want to get that GI Bill money. I just graduated with my bachelor’s in May 2015 with a gpa of 3.836. My opinion is that special ed folks can get a degree. I specifically told professors that I thought college must have gotten easier over the past twenty years. They all confirmed as much. They are pressured not to fail students, because the college’s want them to return so more money is brought in. Anyone can get a degree, but not everyone can handle the stress the military taught us to thrive under.
Sure, I’m going to put down that I have a degree. And I will include the names of the five honors societies that I was part of along with my gpa “with honors”, and the words “magna cum laude”. But I don’t think that a degree is all its cracked up to be. What I showcase on my resume are the duties I performed while I was in service. I will be sure to wear my class ring to the interview though. For the record, I still hear that I am overqualified. So I came up with a new plan…. I am only going to apply for jobs that start with a six figure salary.
To those of you in school, I hope it helps. To those without school, rest assured you are more qualified than someone who only holds a piece of paper. That’s all it is. They have no practical application experience. To those who think that a degree is the answer to everything, and it towers over military experience…. good luck in life. If you don’t think your experience in the military counts, I have some really bad news for you…. you have already reached the pinnacle of what you are going to to. You are backsliding now. Remember, there are plenty of people with PhDs that are selling coffee at Starbucks. Remember, paper isn’t that important, you wipe your ass with it every day.
Just because you are/were in the military does NOT mean you are by default an engineer, accountant, or any profession other than you are “Military”. This has always bothered me, especially living in Huntsville, AL, that people attempt to justify their job qualifications based on military experience. This article attempts to counter-argue the point that obtaining a 4yr degree in a specified area qualifies you to seek a job in that particular area by saying “military experience” serves the same purpose. Well I’m sorry…it doesn’t. Your military experience does nothing but prove that you are able to….guess what…..serve in the military. The exact same way this article attempts to justify military experience provides the same skills (time management, communication, analytic skill, etc) as a college education, a goat herder or dairy cow farmer could just as well make the same argument. So should they also be able to qualify for specialized jobs as engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc also? I Don’t Think So.
You never served in the military did you? You’re just like the rest of the HR managers that haven’t a clue what it takes to, “serve in the military “. I just love the way you so blatantly minimalized the dedication it takes to do something like that. You gonna go burn some flags and spit on a few service members graves this weekend too?
I ran across this article on a Saturday afternoon while surfing the internet. I thought that the article was good, but I was quite surprised by several of the responses. Some of the ones that attempting to devalue military experience versus a college degree only solidified in my mind that a college education doesn’t necessarily provide one with an advanced perspective or critical thinking skills. I can site hundreds of examples to support this observation, and so can many of you; but I want to focus on the question at hand.
I do not have a college degree, or any credits towards one. I have built a relatively successful 35-year career upon a foundation of 3 years of active military service after high school. I have always secured management positions when seeking employment and I have always added lots of value to the organizations that hired me.
I have been monitoring this argument, degree vs. military experience, for years. It always seems boil down to which one is more valuable, as it pertains to employability.
Although there are probably more employers that think that the degree is more valuable, the real determining factor for many is how the applicant for the position conveys their potential value to the employer in their cover letter, resume, application, interview and verifiable achievements. Most job postings that I see that state a degree preference also state that they will consider comparable training and experience. Obviously, there are certain jobs that require a degree. You wouldn’t expect for school systems to hire teachers to teach in an academic environment if the applicant/teacher had no academic background. Therefore, even if a highly intelligent military person with a passion for didactics applied for a teaching position in a public school or university system without a degree, he/she would not meet the minimum requirements for entry into that field. That also applies to several other career fields, as has already been stated in previous posts. For many fields, you can only get the required education in an academic setting.
But for many (and I mean MANY) jobs, what you bring to the table to impact the bottom line of the hiring company is best evaluated by how your overall credentials stack up to the hiring organizations needs and against the competition for the position.
For me, I have never focused on not having a degree. I have always focused on my leadership skills, technical experience, industry specific training, and general job skills (i.e. equipment, computer skills, business writing, public speaking skills, etc.) There are also certifications that hold more value in some career fields than do degrees. There’s also licensure, and continuing education that can keep one abreast of the latest requirements for being competent in a given career field. There is also entrepreneurism, in which case you really get a chance to prove and get paid for what you are worth!
Lastly, I am a recognized professional in my field. I never allowed my professionalism to be measured by lack of a degree. For me, professionalism has always been a MINDSET and my ability to achieve results! So, whether you have a degree or not, always play to your strengths, not to perceived weaknesses by others. If all you have is military experience, then build on that. You have learned A LOT, you have traveled, you have sacrificed, you have developed valuable and marketable skills, you have proven yourself, you have pride, and most importantly- you have SERVED your country with HONOR! Believe me; this speaks volumes to your family, to your countrymen who you unselfishly protected during your service, and to many employers, as well.
I like the comment made earlier by Eric March that “without the veteran, no one in this country would have a degree.”
I really liked this article. The manner in which you broke it down just goes to show that the majority of HR managers have zero idea about what it takes to get through a military enlistment. I myself am a Navy vet, and was dumbfounded when I got out in 2002. The only job I could get was at an office supply store. I went from being trusted with Top Secret information and working on 30 millions dollar fighter planes, to restocking shelves with printer ink for minimum wage. I think that if you make it through an enlistment that you should automatically be considered as having a bachelor’s degree in the field you specialized in.
my colleague was looking for DoL VETS-100A earlier today and used a website with lots of form templates . If people need DoL VETS-100A also , here’s a
https://goo.gl/AgKtYS.This is bull. I see people with little to know military experience who have master degrees lose to those who served in the military and have no degree. Not only that, but those soldiers with a degree and no experience in the field they apply for wind up getting the job over those with the degree in that field and have experience in that field. The bottom line is if you were never in the military then you are not good enough to work a good job in this country. It has been found that a great number of Americans with graduate degrees and with no military experience wind up working a crappy job or leaving tge country in search of a foreign job. Veteran preference is stupid, it should only be used for civilian positions within the military like indian preference for BIA. This country has to quit abandoning those who who worked hard to get their degrees, those who went into debt for their degrees, those with a degree and specialized experience.
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Sintel, it bothers you because you are an under-achiever. Most people have bothered you throughout your life. Most military personnel have out-achieved you. Stop complaining. Step it up. Do something.
This is a fascinating read; the blog and comments. It’s disheartening that there is such snobbery toward people without a 4 year degree. I’ve yet to meet a non veteran who would have the temperament to handle what most of us have dealt with in the service. I remember my 1st class telling me, “I need you up there on the gun mount because you’re the only one that reacts the way you do. You stay calm and you know what you’re doing. Those other **** freak out.” But I’m being told it’s the degree that counts? The degree that has required me to sit through mundane classes with students who complain about what’s on the next test? There’s just too many people who are completely ignorant of what veterans can handle. Not ALL veterans are valuable, but most are.
WORTHLESS MILITRY EXPERIANCE !!!
EVERY ONE IS A SPECIALIST —
Take advantage of both and in the long run you can served you country and achieve your personal goals.